Curse

Regulus X · Jan 08, 2010, 02:36 AM // 02:36

High-end PvP (8v8 or greater) [HP >>> AL] *You'll want to have a maximum pool of HP vs rapid spikes. The damage in PvP isn't high enough to warrant heavy AL usage, tbh. That, and there'll more than likely be alot of AL-bypassing degen from hexes and conditions as well. You're alot better off using full survivors, vitae [if they fit] and a Sup. Vig. rune.

Low-end PvP (4v4 or low-damage foes) [AL >>> HP] *Fast DPS isn't all that common in the smaller arenas of PvP, so you can actually afford to combine Survivors and the most effective insignias related to your build template, or you can run full insignias and still win.

PvE [AL on Head, Hands and Feet; HP on Chest and Leggings] *You need both High levels of armor to mitigate high damage, but you also a high enough HP pool to recieve spikes from mobs. It also depends on the viability of available insignias for your elected profession, and the frequency of the conditions met for the +AL.

Sierraa · Jan 08, 2010, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Regulus X

High-end PvP (8v8 or greater) [HP >>> AL] *You'll want to have a maximum pool of HP vs rapid spikes. The damage in PvP isn't high enough to warrant heavy AL usage, tbh. That, and there'll more than likely be alot of AL-bypassing degen from hexes and conditions as well. You're alot better off using full survivors, vitae [if they fit] and a Sup. Vig. rune.

More armor = Less damage taken = Less healing needed = less energy used = living longer.

I think you should visit [rawr] forums. I hear they have a billion gold capes and advocate + armor.

Zodiac Meteor · Jan 08, 2010, 04:23 AM // 04:23

Armor Ignoring skills are the biggest problem with HP>AL.

For example, on my Grasping Spike Rit, I deal 250 armor ignoring damage on the chain, that's not including the deep wound (100) and Signet of Toxic shock (85). That's 435 armor ignoring damage besides the regular damage.

Health > Armor

If you were a monk with full armor boosts and a steady 480 health, you would be dead.

If you had the 600 health you might survive the spike (smart enough for a fast Word of Healing)

I'm not saying completely Health > Armor. The question should be:
What comes in more handy against meta? Health or Armor?

Life Bringing · Jan 08, 2010, 04:32 AM // 04:32

AL always wins out. The most armor ignoring thing in the meta right now is FC Bloodspike, and 40 health isn't going to make much of a difference anyways. Sieraa said it well. In high end PvP, more AL=less damage=less energy spent healing=a higher energy pool for the monks.

Standard caster has 60 base+10 in insignias(or more)+18 from a shield, and sometimes a +7 on their spear. That turns your squishy into a 95 AL character, almost cutting incoming damage in half. When you look at it this way, AL seems much MUCH more important than a measly +40hp.

*lemming* · Jan 08, 2010, 05:17 AM // 05:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

Armor Ignoring skills are the biggest problem with HP>AL.

For example, on my Grasping Spike Rit, I deal 250 armor ignoring damage on the chain, that's not including the deep wound (100) and Signet of Toxic shock (85). That's 435 armor ignoring damage besides the regular damage.

Health > Armor

If you were a monk with full armor boosts and a steady 480 health, you would be dead.

If you had the 600 health you might survive the spike (smart enough for a fast Word of Healing)

I'm not saying completely Health > Armor. The question should be:
What comes in more handy against meta? Health or Armor?

Good thing the general meta consists of rits with daggers, right?

deluxe · Jan 08, 2010, 09:13 AM // 09:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zodiac Meteor

If you were a monk with full armor boosts and a steady 480 health, you would be dead.

What makes you think a monk with full armor boosts has 480 health?

480 is base health, then add a vigor +50, a vitae +10, a shield +30, a sword +30. That leaves you with a total of ~600 health.
Most monks sit on a weapon with +5 armor depending on the enemy team, so they're ~570 hp, but they do have 96-106 armor depending on which shield they equip.
At 100 Armor, you take HALF the normal damage you would take at 60 armor. Which is kind of a big deal.

ousbique · Jan 08, 2010, 09:49 AM // 09:49

AL is better, but +HP isn't bad too, considering Life steal, +dmg from MoI or Glass Arrows are armor ignoring. And don't forget the insane power of cracked armor ^__^

Swahnee · Jan 08, 2010, 10:03 AM // 10:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by deluxe

What makes you think a monk with full armor boosts has 480 health?

480 is base health, then add a vigor +50, a vitae +10, a shield +30, a sword +30. That leaves you with a total of ~600 health.
Most monks sit on a weapon with +5 armor depending on the enemy team, so they're ~570 hp, but they do have 96-106 armor depending on which shield they equip.
At 100 Armor, you take HALF the normal damage you would take at 60 armor. Which is kind of a big deal.

This is true. We must not forget that, even if we choose full AR insignia and weapons mod (such as AR +5 on spear/sword/etc.), there's always room for an HP bonus, which is, as deluxe says, 1 sup vigor + 2 vitae (i usually use 2 of them) + 1 shield, which is +100 HP guaranteed. So it's wrong to think that the choice is between +HP and +AL: the choice is between +HP and +AL with a little less HP than before.

Kenzo Skunk · Jan 08, 2010, 10:08 AM // 10:08

If we`re talking pve, i guess the mobs will first try to kill the person with the least health?

SPURLUXE · Jan 08, 2010, 10:32 AM // 10:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Winterclaw

+35 hp or whatever it is only has use when you are down to your last 35 hp, ie you are only alive by the margin of your extra HP. +AL is useful every time you get hit by something that is affected by armor.

I totally agree.

Tenebrae · Jan 08, 2010, 10:48 AM // 10:48

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzo Skunk

If we`re talking pve, i guess the mobs will first try to kill the person with the least health?

They dont look only that , they also look armor rating and some adding things i dont remember.

Xenomortis · Jan 08, 2010, 12:10 PM // 12:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

They dont look only that , they also look armor rating and some adding things i dont remember.

Health, Armour, weapon carried, enchantments, if you've cast a spell on an ally or something...

the_jos · Jan 08, 2010, 12:18 PM // 12:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzo Skunk

If we`re talking pve, i guess the mobs will first try to kill the person with the least health?

It's a little more complex.

As far as I can tell it's (for Hard Mode) at least a combination of:
Health
(Base) armor
Equipped weapon
Enchantments on people
Not sure on stances

With my roughly 600 hp monk (not the tanking build) I'll catch aggro even when standing next to a warrior with lower HP.
However, a guildie with one or two superior runes on his Ranger armor was always the first to catch aggro.
So most likely there is some kind of formula that calculates the 'weakness' of the available targets based on several variables.

Improvavel · Jan 08, 2010, 07:46 PM // 19:46

So you are tell me that 10% damage reduction of a 300 damage spell is better than +30 hp?

The guy one has 630 health takes 300 is down to 330 - better get heal. Guy 2 has 600 health takes 270 damage is down to 330. Better get heal.

TT some people have nothing better to do.

Xenomortis · Jan 08, 2010, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

So you are tell me that 10% damage reduction of a 300 damage spell is better than +30 hp?

The guy one has 630 health takes 300 is down to 330 - better get heal. Guy 2 has 600 health takes 270 damage is down to 330. Better get heal.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Where's 10% come from?
Besides, what happens if the 300 damage spell comes again? The 1st person will be left with 30 health, but the 2nd will be left with 60.

The 30 health is a mere 5% increase from 600. That's diminishing returns right there. Armour doesn't really suffer from that.

Improvavel · Jan 08, 2010, 08:44 PM // 20:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

I'm not sure what you're trying to say. Where's 10% come from?
Besides, what happens if the 300 damage spell comes again? The 1st person will be left with 30 health, but the 2nd will be left with 60.

The 30 health is a mere 5% increase from 600. That's diminishing returns right there. Armour doesn't really suffer from that.

If you prefer use 35 health (the survivor health amount and 15% damage reduction that is the reduction of damage you get from going from 60->70 AL http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating). Same results or close.

But the diminishing returns of the health increase is countered by the fact that some damage ignores completely armor, making the armor bonus irrelevant.

The difference is very very small.

In PvP its a meta call - if most damage in degen and/or armor ignoring, + health makes more sense. If it is armor sensible damage, +armor is better.

Xenomortis · Jan 08, 2010, 09:10 PM // 21:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Improvavel

If you prefer use 35 health (the survivor health amount and 15% damage reduction that is the reduction of damage you get from going from 60->70 AL http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Armor_rating). Same results or close.

The results diverge further. And it's +40 health from full survivor's - 15 (chest) +10 (legs) + 3*5 (head, hands, feet). Although sometimes one will have other insignias (Warriors with Stonefist, or Necs with Bloodstained).
40 health is a mere 8.333...% increase in health from a base of 480. A 15% increase is 72.

However yes, in a PvE setting it is largely trivial because damage mounts up pretty quick regardless from various sources.
In PvP, +AL is usually regarded as superior (as far as I can tell anyway).

Desert Rose · Jan 09, 2010, 02:34 AM // 02:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kenzo Skunk

If we`re talking pve, i guess the mobs will first try to kill the person with the least health?

Mobs will most likely attack the target they can kill the most rapidly; in most cases +armor makes you harder to kill than +health, so if you want to avoid aggro use +armor insignias.

Curo · Jan 09, 2010, 03:42 AM // 03:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xenomortis

Hence, +5AL = 8% damage reduction from armour-sensitive sources.

Also remember that armour damage-reduction has a diminishing return. A caster (60 AL) weilding a +5 AL weapon (65 AL) will get more damage reduction than a ranger weilding a +5 AL weapon (75 AL). Where this really starts to matter is when armour gets high. When does +30hp become better than +5AL? Eventually the extra armour from the +5 AL weapon will be come near insignificant, where the +30hp is constant and will always be applied, no matter how much hp or armour you have.

So the answer is a balance of HP and AL. Someone just needs to do the calculations to find the cutoff point for when HP starts to become better than armour. At 60 AL, additional armour is more beneficial, but eventually it will not be. Should a warrior still carry a +5AL weapon over a +30hp weapon? Should your party members still carry a +5AL weapon when playing with a SY spammer? Should an extreme earth elementalist tank (obby flesh, armor of earth, kinetic armor, etc) carry a +5AL weapon?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swahnee

(anyone worried about ascalon mergoyles?)

Ascalon mergoyles deal armour-ignoring damage ^^

Ensign · Jan 09, 2010, 07:50 AM // 07:50

+HP established itself as the go-to stat for PvP in an environment with a lot of armor ignoring damage, long matches with lots of DP, and health reduction at VoD. +health armor and weapons were hedges against all of these.

In a lot of match-ups it still made sense to run the +armor until you accumulated a bit of DP, and this was common before armor swapping was removed. Then it just became standard to stack health, because hedging against being knocked out of the game for taking a bit of DP was more important than a bit more damage reduction in a game with strong prot and mitigation, and a lot of armor ignoring damage coming in from Warriors and Dom Mesmers.

Without VoD and a much less lethal environment overall, things look a lot more like they did in Team Arena, where armor was dominant.